High expectations only tempt me to exceed them.
I'm going to walk away from this thread now.
Just remember, I'm a scientific person. I restrict myself based on Islam (Halal and Haram foods, Praying 5 times a day), and accept it's basic message (There's but one god). But I'm not so foolhardy as to base everything on spirituality alone.
Science tries to ask all the questions.
Religion tries to answer all of them.
Of the two methods of approaching life, I prefer the first, but don't ignore the second.
You can't kill me.
Far better men have tried.
Men and things so far beyond men you can't even imagine them.
So you see sexual contact as purely a biological thing and yet believe in love. Science has yet to fully understand what 'love' is, but most of the studies so far put it as being nothing more than sex chemicals driving you to find a mate and reproduce – the biological need to procreate. So what matter is it that 'Herpy's depths', as you call them, differ from the norm of human instinct? Is the reason why you disapprove of such material truly 'love', something that is not intrinsctly biological or even neccesary for survival? Love is a fantasy – one in which many people believe. And it exists, at least in our minds. However, if you are going to take a strictly animalistic approach to sex then you should do away with the concept of love as well.
You keep speaking as if this 'truth' is absolute and undeniable – that it can be realized by everyone and that it is the 'right path'. Now, I already addressed the fallacy of such an idea, so I won't anymore, but on the note of rejecting spirituality.. You say you are not spiritual, and yet you speak of this greater truth. Where does this truth come from? Is it not a spiritual guideline in and of itself? It seems that way.
I can tell you that it is not wise to patronize me, and that is what I did. It was not claiming that I am wise or anything of that sort; it was not my 'truth', it was simply a warning that it will not have make any progress with me as an individual or the subject as a whole. I respect you, and I expect respect in return. You have yet to give that.
Yes, an honest question, and yes, it was worth commenting on. If you are so aware of my 'past actions', as you claim, then you should also know that I choose very carefully when to get involved in debate and when to not. This happens to be a case where I felt it neccesary to do so.
You're right, I have neglected my own opinion in the effort to stay 'neutral', as you say – in the same form that I illustrated earlier, and that is by removing myself from the subject material. The only thing that you know right now is that I disagree with your claims of there being an almighty truth or right and wrong to the world. I believe that every such judgment is entirely subjective. If you must have my opinions, however..
It is my opinion that you and everyone else should have the right to think and believe in what you want. It is my opinion that those beliefs should not be forced upon others. It is my opinion that every individual should respect one another for their differing beliefs, and that they should be happy for their human brother and sister in their differences as they are for their own. If we must go further..
I believe that sexuality should be embraced, not condemned, and that alternative interests are not in any case inheriently 'wrong'. I believe that the concepts of 'right and wrong' are in and of themselves naïve and untrue. And I believe that one's spirituality should be personal and kept to himself, as opposed to intergration with an organized religion.
As Mr. Venghze stated, I would be interested to hear the details of how freedom drowns people in 'corruption and lust'.
Last edited by Airduinec; 02-20-2012 at 08:17 PM.
*Sigh* I will make this shorter so I can respond to everything for today.
I read everything and took it to notice.
Just little bits:
You riped it out from context with the spirituality part. I said that we are all humans to Venghze, but as he claims to be an Otherkin, I moved the spirituatlity aside just for that moment.
Anyways, I don't see how spirituality has to do anything with moral code. It's mental guideline, Airduinec.
Usefull experience indeed.
Thou has borrowed heavily against thy soul.
I wasn't taking the subject of spirituality out of context in the sense of using it against you, I was simply quoting you saying that you disregard it to question where your truth comes from. I could have done the same with your earlier comment on being Atheist. How do you not see how spirituality has anything to do with morals? A lot of religions and even lesser spiritual beliefs provide a set of do's and don't's in life.
You're ignorant. If you think for a moment that I am debating this for my own pleasure and that I choose to 'hear things as [I] wish', then you are a fool. I am not sure whether it is your cultural background, or your upbringing as a youth, but it is clear that you wish nothing more than to blindly cling to your own misconception and portray others (or at least me) as assholes. If I may bring my own fallacy into the picture, I understand that you have feelings for communism and, being a supporter of socialism, I am quite concerned that this portion of your perspective may be derived from such thoughts, especially with your words on education and its 'inspiration'. For whatever reason you seem to have a disposition against me even before this subject was discussed, what with my 'honesty' being questioned and whatnot. Honestly, it's pathetic; learn to practice what you preach - separate yourself from your opinions and try to become 'neutral'.
Of course I brought in science. Is that a terrible thing? And I didn't say you had an animalistic view on sex, I said that it was an animalistic approach - a biological approach. Quit the criminalization. Thanks for the lectures though, I enjoyed them.
Believe what what you want. No one will stop you. But it is not absolute, and no one will ever accept your opinion except fellow believers if you continue to portray it as the 'truth'. That's the real truth, Erian Angelus. Enjoy your slice of naivety; I will take my leave before I become more.. honest.
Last edited by Airduinec; 02-20-2012 at 10:14 PM.
Erian, Air's already pointed it out, but seriously try to tone down the condescending approach to your sentences, of particular note is "sigh indeed." I have a feeling condescending was not the intention but it would be very easy to think it was based off segments like that.
High expectations only tempt me to exceed them.
Well, I may sound like I am patronizing him, which, I agree, is not a good option. I didn't put a condescending approach in that particular sentence. I'm just ashonished how my point was made misplaced. I guess I sound patronizing. I can probably sound like that again, due to his "relief".
I can only imagine now what love is to you. Pleasure? "Hands can give that pleasure". I am speaking about true happyness - when you have a very strong and great feeling towards somebody. Somebody, who always makes you happy and who is a big part of your life. On who you can trust completely and give the same back and so on... Ofcourse, that is how I see love, but it's definitely cannot be tied up with a word like "pleasure". Joy is a better word. Anyways, I told you: I don't need sexual contact to understand what is "love". You can call sexual contact as "making love", but I am speaking about the "sincere and pure" feeling towards somebody, rather sexual contact, which gives pleasure. Just to think on it: does sexual contact give happyness? I don't think so; pleasure - yes. And love gives you happyness.
"So what matter is it that 'Herpy's depths', as you call them, differ from the norm of human instinct?"
You don't need to tear limbs and eat guts further to reproduce. By "Herpy's depths" I called that kind of pornography.
Spirituality and morals... How to put it right... You don't steal because it's a rule in a bible; because your god will punish you? Or because you understand that stealing is wrong? I think that true values should be understood, rather aquired from fear or because they are the rules.
You also told me that you choose very carefuly when to enter a debate or not. Alright. A guy entered this thread to say that in his religion it's a very bad thing to look into the Gallery. He tried to be careful, polite; he made sure that people will not understand him wrong; he respected us all. He even apologised after that. But you had to say a word to him, don't you? I said that I heard of your behaviour before. Not so "honest". I haven't said that you an asshole. I ment that you may wish to "strain" few. That's why I had a desposition to you at the start. You acted disrespectfuly to a person once (Didn't witnessed, heard that from the person); you had to say absolutely irrelevant commentary to a person at this thread; you once came into another thread and misleaded the point, because you thought as you wanted. You wanted respect from me and now calling me an ignorant and a fool. My motives are pathetic and so let those words exists. But are you showing respect to others and don't you "shovel" topics under your own views? If you remember it, I answered to you when you did that. And I answered to you only 2 times. This conversation is a third time of our encounter.
Ofcourse, you may expect retaliation from me, because of your insults; but do not worry, I am not that low for direct insults.
First of all, I had a debate with Venghze like that one before he was a moderator. And the debate ended here absolutely the same way, how it ended some time ago. But ofcourse you don't know about that! Let's make worthwhile conclusions! I may be ignorant, but are you any better?
I don't strife to be friends with mods or I don't assent their words. I barely spoke with them; and I see them, and you, as human beings, moderator or not. But when it comes to their duty to give warnings, I try to comply.
Unlike yours, Venghze's answer was suprisingly respectful and disciplined; when I thought I was agressive to him and expected the same in return. But no, his words were pined to the topic and not to personal matters. And so the debate ended as it should.
"Move along, citizen..."
Last edited by Erian Angelus; 02-21-2012 at 01:53 PM.
Thou has borrowed heavily against thy soul.
Ok then, since I do not feel like adding my point of view on the discussion above, I will try to explain my own position towards both religion and spirituality, to reply directly to the question of this apparently very hot thread.
I will start with religion. I will say I have been baptized as a catolic christian, however I do not practice this faith even if I do go to church when necessary, to honor people I know that follow religious tradition of both marriage and funeral. My primary problem with any religion is the fact that, since it states ultimate truths and never just possibilities, it has always resulted in creating conflict with other religions for the purpose of establing a singual faith.
History has a great number of examples of how religion is imposed on people whose previous religious traditions are persecuted and banned. For instance a good example is the colonization of the Americas, and how the conquistadores and in particular catholic priests acted towards the natives. The medieval holy wars are another good example on how religion has always been a good excuse for justifying the killing of not only warriors, but also the murdering (and much worse, too) of innocents such as children, women and the elderly, and doing so in the "name of god".
It isn't fun to read how during the holy wars both the muslims and the christians were even worse than animals (go read some chronicles, you'll be surprised), and still thought that their actions would lead them to salvation as those wars were "commanded" by the "right" god. But I am digressing. This is to say that because a religion tells ultimate truths, all the ultimate truths of other religions must be wrong. I am not a religious person for this very reason. I do not follow a religion, however I do understand the advantages of one: the fact of resting the mind from the doubt that is caused by not believing in something ultimately, for instance.
Since any specific ultimate I could pick would happen to enter in contradiction that results in conflict with a holder of a different ultimate truth, I recognize religion as just another instrument of control with the purpose of establishing dominance and provoking justified violence, both verbal and physical, as I have explained before. Of course I haven't got anything against believers as long as they do not try to convert me or to question me, or try to make me think that their own view is better than someone else's or even mine.
Spiritually wise it's a different story. I do not "leave out" the possibility of both the existence of the creative force as an intelligent being and of the individual spirit. However I am also sure that I cannot be ultimately sure of their existence, because even if I have had experiences that could lead me to think there is a spirit and that we are all part of creation therefore of whatever wished it, my own thoughts are only opinions and are not made to make me or anyone else believe in them as "ultimates" or irrefutable facts.
I do believe though that there are obvious things in life that tell us when they are wrong, for example doing harm to others, but I think this occurrs simply out of that feeling called empathy. It is obvious that there are people that ignore empathy or are void of it or like doing harm and that is the reason why bad things happen on a regular basis, and the world looks so ruined and corrupted. Strangely, if this is so, it does seem that in nature there is an attraction/tendency towards actions/things that look/feel negative/unpure: for instance the fact of hurting someone during the sexual act may increase the sexual desire in someone.
Referring to the Herpy Dephts and talking for myself, I can tell out of personal experience that there is nothing wrong in imagining something bad in order to get positive/pleasurable results if this is limited to the context of the art/the imaginary or of a virtual reality. Just look at how all these people play videogames in which you do nothing but murder and they are such a great form of entertainment! It was the same with the romans and their colosseums, only that today we have learned how to confine these impulses within a place no one can get hurt.
Unfortunately bad things happen outside of these contexts which are bad, but are they bad in the eye of the person that commits them? And is or isn't this person part of the nature that makes everyone of us up? Mh.
So really, to resume my own beliefs after what I said. I do not think that evil is unpure or it is always sick, wrong or perverted. It can be as much as good can be unpure, sick, wrong or perverted (think of the inquisition if you want an example). Anyway, I try not to believe in anything and that is my belief.
Always question, never remove completely out of the equation something as much as putting it above everything else. Learning from listening, but still thinking on my own to then share my views without making them into facts but just opinions for everyone to see is my own way of approaching the subjects of this thread.
Last edited by Sandy; 02-21-2012 at 06:17 PM.
It's nice to be here, you know - makes me feel at home
Also Erian; our last debate (before this one) ended up in that we agreed to disagree. I guess this one ended up in something similar. Further of notice; even if the other person in the debate gets agressive, you shouldnt. The agressive debater is usually agressive because he is about to loose, so stay correct and watch him lower himself until he looses. Much more mature and effective way to rule debate ;3 But, what makes a good debater is especially never to step on someone else's toes, like saying "christianity is pointless and stupid". That makes people loose respect for you as you obviously are ignorant and doesnt respect people who disagree with you. Get what I want to say? So lets skip this "truth" thing. Every truth is an opinion unless scientifically proven otherwise.
Originally Posted by 10 Golden Debate Rules
Last edited by Venghze; 02-22-2012 at 03:31 AM.